schrodinger at konundrum.org
Thu Feb 9 13:24:01 GMT 2012
Yes, I'm top posting and posting inline. It's just easier at this stage.
First off, like other people have pointed out - this is the opinion of
an individual. It is also an "opinion" it does not constitute fact, this
it the universe we exist in, not every opinion implies fact.
I'm sorry that you've had some bad experiences getting into Tog. You've
been very active with wanting to use the space and it looks like the
current procedures are sub-optimal for what you need. However, this has
been a unique case - from what I know, I don't recall anyone else having
a big issue with access to the space.... however I might hear a rustle.
It has always been policy that we don't just hand out keys willy nilly
and I think you will find that most full members would prefer it stay
that way. However maybe the probationary members "configuration" might
need adjusting, this can be discussed. Note that I said "discussed" not
argued, debated, brought to the colosseum, etc....
I'm sure we're all open to suggestions about how probationary members
without a key can get into Tog when there isn't a full member present to
open the space and maintain a watchful eye over the equipment.
It's "funny" how we're now basically arguing about the space being used.
This is stupid, for want of a better phrase in such public mediums. I
would love to see Tog used 24x7 regardless of how much that will cost.
Having the space open during the day I am sure might help to bring in
people who are interetsed in using Tog but maybe they too are only
available during the day time when Tog is generally closed -
But how do we sort this out? Leave they keys under a duck at the front
And so we continue:
On 2012/02/09 11:55, Armin Haas wrote:
> > But, tog is not an adult day-care, and it is not somewhere
> > to go when nowhere else is open.
> I owe you one. Without you I would still be under the impression that
> TOG is a place to hang out during the day and wait for the pubs to open,
> a place to crawl back to and continue drinking once all the pubs have
I'm not taking sides and you can interpret my words whichever way you
desire, I know my intent and tone.
I would think that Tog is a perfectly acceptable place "to go when
nowhere else is open" In fact I'd choose Tog as a place to go most of
the time, unless I have other desires that Tog can't facilitate.
I can accept your frustration and to a point I can accept lashing out in
times of frustration, I myself am all too guilty of this behaviour,
however let's try to take a deep breath and talk civily about this.
I've left Tog before over getting up tight about policy and procedure
but let's not allow bad experiences to taint what is relatively simple
and on such a public medium as the mailing list I would hope that by the
end of all this we (subscribers, probationary members and full members)
can not feel disgruntled and agree that this was discussed correctly.
Not everyone can be satisfied but this is why "compromise" was
I hope the comment about drinking in Tog is purely sarcasim otherwise I
myself might take offense to this. I do drink in Tog because people are
permitted to, if anyone have a problem with this then raise it
SEPARATELY to this thread. I don't think there is any unsuitable
drinking done in Tog and it has never really disrupted the space or
any guests/events/Toglodytes IMO.
> All the other members of TOG, they thought, well, this Armin dude, he
> will see his mistake in his own time.
And unfortunately people might still be thinking this after your last
> Enter Chebe. To the rescue.
Indeed, I think Chebe stated her opinion quite clearly, politely and
articulated herself well. In fact I read her email and thought it would
have put this discussion to bed allowing her to hang up her cape or
perhaps enhance it at the next craft night.
> You didn't let me waste my time, instead you showed me the error of my
> ways. There I was, thinking of offering classes like 'Haskell for
> Hoboes' to help the day crowd pass the time, or 'VHDL for Very Heavily
> Drunk Loiterers' for the night folks. While everyone but me knew there
> would be no such persons in TOG. At all.
Could you pleae drop the wise cracks about drinking, I am finding it
offensive now. If you present the opinion that everyone in Tog who
appears at "night" is a "Very Heavily Drunk Loiterer" then I'm afraid
you have the wrong opinion of Toglodytes and I would wonder where the
@#$% you got this opinion from!? You are giving a _very_ bad impression
to people of what Tog is like and if I wasn't a founding member I would
be weary about visiting Tog after this since it's obviously just a bunch
of drunks playing with equipment. </sarcasim>
Perhaps I've interpreted your own sarcasim incorrectly and I stand open
to correction, a person's tone it not always so evident through text
without appropriate tags. </not sarcasim>
> So thank you again for being frank with me on that subject. I shall make
> good use of this new information and henceforth direct my efforts more
> towards the real abodes of my target audience.
Once again what Chebe stated was opinion Armin..... let's not get bent
out of shape over this, really. Please. You don't have to agree with
what Chebe said, again this is the universe we live in, however, all
Chebe did was to restate what is, hopefully, publically known and
understood and then asked for a discussion about how to better improve
our current methods, make suggestions and compromise. No offence Armin
but all you've done thus far is convery your dissatisfaction rather than
help us evolve our processes. Tog is a mere infant, only three years old
and it's parent are still getting used to the fact that we have a child
to share with the world. It takes times to figure out the process. We're
not a well established hackerspace like those in other countries but
we're getting there!
Bring on Tog's 50th! ;)
So where do we go from here? Continue to all allow our pride, general
emotions and opinion dictate the rest of this rant? Or do we try to put
our differences and emotions aside and make suggestions about what to
I'm sure you and everyone else might have something to say what about
I've just written and feel free to commen but I have a radical
How about we drop everything thus far and here what you (Armin) would
prefer as a procedure for probationary members and getting into Tog....
In fact everyone chime in! Free speech and all that jazz.
I'll get the ball rolling.
If a guest wants to get into Tog I feel that a probationary member of
sufficient "time" must be present or a full member must be present. I
don't think this should change at all...
If a probationary member wishes to get into Tog but there is no one
available then I think they can try to arrange with a key holder to take
a loan of their keys to get into Tog. However I think that this should
only be applicable for a probationary member who has at least one month
or "face time" with Tog - I don't think that's unreasonable. Yes there
is the issue of what are people paying for - but this is why I think a
minimum period of one month is acceptable. The key holder who gives the
probationary member their keys should at least know the person and trust
them to a certain degree.
Yes/ no / maybe / rabble ?
> Open skies, cake in the pantry and cheers
I'd love some cake.
I made a funny! - Splinter.
I hope we can work passed this as I still want to run our planned
workshop and key signing party.
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
MSN: schro5 at hotmail.com
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